Let Me Be Mad — Ryan Gerard

Ryan Gerard (00:00)
think it comes from something intrinsically inside me screwed up in a way that I hate losing more than I like winning. And I hate the feeling of, you know, letting my team down Like that's like to my core, like something that I just it's a visceral reaction.

It also comes from putting myself in competitive situations from a very young age where I was always an underdog, where I was always kind of like the youngest person in the room and having to figure out how to be competitive and keep things close or even win. And you just learn a lot about yourself in those moments where it's like, man, I can compete, I beat this kid seven times in a row in a putting contest, like, he wants to go an eighth time.

I'm gonna beat him day time. you just put yourself in those situations and you have to want it. And you have to want it for yourself more than anyone else can want it for you.

Matt Considine (01:00)
Welcome to the Bag Drop. I'm Matt Constime here with the professor. Professor, top of the morning. How are you, sir?

The Professor (01:09)
I'm feeling spry. I'm time zone adjusted. all all reset and just full of inspiration, full of energy today.

Matt Considine (01:16)
I

I I I could tell you know, I I love your returns from the homeland, Scotland. You've done it much more than I in the last many years. And I can always tell a shift, you know. I don't know if it's like a spiritual alignment that happens within you, an awakening, but but yeah, your ten days in Scotland had an impact on you once again, which I love. I always feed off you when when you get back. But here's what I want to know I know there was competitions on the books. Did you win your point? Did you win your match?

The Professor (01:43)
of course you would go straight there. I I did not win, win the match. So it was awesome though. one of the reasons I built this trip around the dates I did couldn't make the town match work this year. but got to play against St. Roll, the ladies club, on my last Thursday in a four ball match where the the new the new golf club took them on and I think we had six matches of four ball. the traditional interclub, you know, play, then lunch afterwards with some

you know, wine, coffee, dessert sort of stuff. It was a it was an awesome experience. And we got we got beat.

Matt Considine (02:14)
I a lot of peop a lot of people don't

know this. So like it's so there's there's men's clubs and and ladies' clubs in Saint Andrews. so you get did you guys eat at the same rule afterwards? Like it's it's open policy for the actual club house, right? It's not like as a man you can still come in and and eat with your c opponents, right? Is that how it works?

The Professor (02:31)
Yeah, so we're the hosts. New Golf Club was the host. And for those not familiar, the way this works, and this exists, you know, obviously this is St. Andrews matches here, but this exists with with across the UK culture. We're the hosts. That means, you know, if we had our own course associated with our clubhouse, we'd play that course. We played the Eden course, lovely. Colt Greens there. If we taught

Matt Considine (02:51)
Colt Green, that place is so rad.

The Professor (02:53)
if we toss away two holes, you know, it would be arguably the best set of I'd say golf on property outside the old course.

but the way it traditionally works, you host them, right? So you set up the matches on your grounds, you play that, you go in afterwards. So they came to our clubhouse. We had a pre-lunch drink. So you sit with your four-ball opponents at tables of four. You're kind of recapping the match, have your pre-run drinks, you're bantering with everyone else. Then you get invited upstairs to the dining room. You do a formal lunch, right? You're in jacket and tie. If you're a male, you know you're dressing in nice attire. If you're a female.

Again, you sit with your four-ball opponents at the lunch, you know, kind of a multi-course lunch. The captains get up, say some words at different times, they w hold the results for a while. Then as the tea and coffee's coming out with dessert, the you know the the the host captain gets up, gives us gives a speech, announces the winner, then the winner's captain, this case Saint Roll, one three and a half, two and a half. I I I guess we got a place on us. We lost the eighteenth hole. If we had won that eighteenth hole, we would have flipped the match.

They give a speech and then you retire down to the lounge for more drinks and casual conversation with the whole crew. So it's a whole ordeal. And as a host, nobody really pays anything. I think maybe we pay five pounds as the host. It just comes out of our debit card.

Matt Considine (04:08)
Yeah.

The Professor (04:08)
but it's the clubs that put it on. And this happens across the entire UK culture, right? That you get to go play other people's courses and experience other people's clubs at essentially no cost to the people themselves. The clubs cover that all.

Matt Considine (04:20)
It's

it's such a cool cultural thing. I mean, I've played in a number of those across the pond and you know, interclub matches here. And there's just such like a template in Scotland that all the clubs, like you can you can bring five, six, ten clubs together, and they all kind of know what the rhythms of the day are gonna be, and it just hums along, like there's an energy to it. that's that's awesome though that you got to play in in in that one. I want to hear more about it. but that's not why we're here today. last thing I wanted to ask you about your trip to Scotland.

a lot of running picks, Professor. Not not a lot of shots of you swinging a club. More you running a golf course. Are you are you training for something? What's going on?

The Professor (04:59)
we're gonna stay healthy, you know, after that I'm still reeling after that Texas gate, you know, weekend last year with well when I just

Matt Considine (05:07)
Yeah, you're you're just getting

yourself in peak physical condition for your next four ball partner that's not me. I see what's happening here. I see what's happening.

The Professor (05:12)
That's yeah, that's that's what that's

what I'm doing. shout out Texas, by the way, the real the real UT. if you notice, we got some new backdrop here. They've got Tennessee coming up, and you know, we're in SEC culture down here. People have been asking me who's the real UT, you know, Texas, Tennessee coming up. I kept going back and forth. I'm like, man, I don't know. You know, on one hand, with Texas, we got what? I mean, best swimming program to ever. They won like fifty-seven straight conference titles.

How many national titles, right? Phenomenal school, yada yada yada on Tennessee. I mean Peyton Manning, Sweeton's co friend. Rob Collins, possibly the greatest architect ever, once all said and done. but you know what? You d

Matt Considine (05:51)
I think you've you've you've

found a way to somehow piss off our entire audience before we've even gotten started here today. Our Midwesterners are gonna be angry at ya. Our South Easterners are gonna be angry at ya. That's our that's our people, Kevin. Come on.

The Professor (06:05)
Well, you know, here's how I decided ultimately. One, Tommy Hannon, Andrew Davidson, great lads, good friends. But yeah, you look at it, I mean, who speed Ohio State or Georgia more recently until this past weekend? Neither of them maybe even sniffed them. So I'm gonna give it up to the real UT, University of Texas. You know, I'm gonna get rid of this hat now. but since last year, put Lookout Mountain, one of my favorite places. No, anyways, back to the quick aside there.

congratulations, Texas, on the Ohio State victory. You know, let me give that nod. But no, we're go back to running. Man.

Matt Considine (06:37)
How gentlemanly love you. How gentlemen of you. I won't get

back to running. I got a question on it. So you were running across, you know, storied links. I think I saw your your Strava app routes, North Barrack, the old course. Does anybody I mean I mean, play is happening, right? The sun's up. They're playing. Did anybody, you know, holler at you? Or do obviously you know what you're doing, but how'd that how's that go

The Professor (07:02)
Yeah, yeah.

Matt Considine (07:02)
over there?

The Professor (07:03)
I mean, I think again, one of the beauty of the Scottish links, obviously being public ground, it's allowed and also just understood as something that happens. So most days I got out when the grounds crew's working on everything, which is kind of spiritual in and of itself. You're running and you hear the mowers go and you're watching them do their work, you know, giving your waves to them as you pass by, you know, a mower going right by you on the path. and then yeah, old course. I mean, I don't know if it gets any cooler than.

running across that road, splitting one and eighteen while w you know, when first balls are going off and getting to watch some people go out and enjoy the day. It's just cool, right? You're at two of the top, you know, arguably twenty, at least top fifty golf courses in the world and just go out and get your four mile run on them in the morning.

Matt Considine (07:45)
Well, I I gotta share this with you because it was so funny. as many that listen to the show know, I'm always inspired by the professor. You're you're my muse in in more ways than one. And I I I committed stupidly committed to a a marathon relay team for the fall.

and not in itself is stupid. What's stupid about it is it's the same day as New Club Northeast Ohio's Club Championship.

So I'm getting up in the morning. They gave me the early leg. I think it's five and a half miles. Professor, I haven't

The Professor (08:15)
Okay.

Matt Considine (08:16)
run five and a half miles in a long, long time. But I'm seeing you over there, getting your runs in. And I was like, all right, you know, maybe if I let's run to a couple of the neighboring golf courses here. And and so I did two different days in a row. the Muni, nobody cared. There wasn't even that many people out there. Nobody gave a hoot. So I was like, okay, maybe this could be a new running spot for me. but then I went to the local country club that we

We'll rename nameless. And you know, I never thought it would have been an issue. They're punching the greens for crying out loud. Nobody was out there. Sure enough. Cart zooms up. General manager, sir, please are you a member? No. Okay. Exit the facility. So I thought you get a kick out of that. y y just you know, let's light up. Let's let people run. They may maybe runners could could learn a little thing about golf if they we let out there. I know who's it, Malcolm Gladwell. He'd be a lot happier if

If he got permitted to do that. But

The Professor (09:08)
That's right.

Matt Considine (09:09)
but yeah, so thanks, thanks for inspiring me. My legs have felt like jello for two weeks, but we'll we'll get there. Well,

The Professor (09:15)
I l love hearing that.

Matt Considine (09:17)
today, Professor, great booking. give you all the credit. we got a good one coming on the show. Ryan Gerrard is coming. you know, Professor, I'm guilty sometimes on this show talking about the requirements of modern golf and the professional game these days. And I feel like a golf tragic.

But every once in a while there's a guy that kind of breaks that out of me. And and Ryan has been that for this 2026 season. There's no homogenized game or or sound bite. Like Ryan, he certainly ain't that what I'm talking about with you know how how the modern game has evolved. He, Professor, you've been a fan of his for quite a while, and I always get my recommendations from you. But after the season, I know he's scooped up.

A lot of people like myself, a lot of new fans. it's not just winning on the PGA tour. You know, he had what three second place finishes. He finished third at East Lake at the tour championship, number twenty-one in the world. the stats don't lie, but the dude is a dog. He's a competitor. And for me, I think he's a perfect fit for this show and what we like to chat about because almost every time I've seen a mic in front of him, he says something interesting or thoughtful or

Downright hilarious or what I say to you know, you when we're playing. So I'm really excited just to to learn a little bit from him today. thanks for getting him to join us here.

The Professor (10:34)
Yeah, I mean, think all the thanks go to our our good friend, Nico Daris on this one. I I'll never forget. this is several years ago, and it was the first time they'd played together. Nico calls me afterwards. He's like, dude, I played with this guy, he's a tour player. And at that time, I forgive Ryan was just bounced back down to the corn ferry, was back on the PGAs right around that period. And he's like, he just told me straight up, he's like, This first time I ever played the dude, he's You just told me I suck. Like, you got no chance.

Ryan Gerard (10:48)
So

The Professor (11:00)
Yeah, like in like in the way you know, in like the best, most appropriate way possible. It was like, Hey man, if you wanna like have a shot at anything, you need to be a lot freaking better. you know, and I think that

Matt Considine (11:09)
Nico Nico's not used

to hearing that from people, I think, in any aspect of his life, right?

The Professor (11:13)
Right. And

Nico's, yeah, he's of the of the size. You definitely don't necessarily say stuff like that to him. but no, I I think what you know, why Nico probably got along with Ryan right out of the gates and then I've always appreciated him is 'cause he speaks truth to things. He's, you know, he's got a lot of thoughtful things to say about stuff and is really good at saying it in a concise way. you know, if it's about I think of his on course interviews when he's doing the walk and talk so often those are pretty lame. Ryan's are always great.

Ryan Gerard (11:40)
Okay.

The Professor (11:40)
So even a you

Matt Considine (11:40)
Yeah, there's there's one

at the Scottish Oprah I might lead in with here. But yeah, you're right. You're right. Well should we

The Professor (11:46)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (11:46)
sh I I I well I don't wanna skip over tradition, sorry. Do you have a teaching for us today, Professor?

Ryan Gerard (11:52)
you

The Professor (11:52)
Yeah, a short

one, a little relevant one. not necessarily a hard-hitting one, but you know, kind of resonates with my my time in Scotland. So the first thing I did was off the plane, meet our our good friend Josh Ralston, and I still got to spend the first week with them. But anyway, he's like, hey, here's what we gotta go here first. you know, based on what we've been working on, what we teased in our most recent podcast episode. We went straight to the Muscle Bird Lynx little golf course. so the fact that goes along

Ryan Gerard (12:19)
you

The Professor (12:19)
with that.

Is that is the oldest surviving golf course in the world, right? The nine holes that are there are the nine holes that were there all the way back when that they played six opens on. So in terms of surviving course, meaning its current layout, if you will if you walk it back to when it started, that is the oldest surviving course in the world as it stands.

Matt Considine (12:39)
W why does the old course not qualify for that?

The Professor (12:42)
because it's seeing different iterations, right? It was played in reverse. The course, so the course layout has changed.

Matt Considine (12:48)
continuous. Okay.

The Professor (12:49)
Yeah. So this is the

Matt Considine (12:50)
Gotcha.

The Professor (12:50)
surviving golf course. Whereas in one, you know, it the the version of the open of the course pla when the open was played on it is the same version of the course now. so yeah, in 1672 is the earliest hard record.

Ryan Gerard (12:54)
you

The Professor (13:02)
There's a ledger of a bet that occurred on the golf course in eighteen in sixteen seventy two. So you could trace back the history all the way to that, if you want to s use that as its as its time period. But

More meaningful relative to you know the Scottish trip and just thinking about you know some of the things we try to accomplish. It's just cool to see a place keep the course in its proper layout. All right, like that is the course. We're gonna leave it at that. So it all

Matt Considine (13:25)
Yeah. W w the way they played it all the way back then is the way you played it today. Right.

The Professor (13:31)
yeah, it offers us a historical site for those that love those of us that like that sort of thing to visit it and just think about how was the grain ground and

game played then. You know, what did the course look like? What was its style? And what did the game look like? So I appreciate them keeping that in its current shape. And I hope that stays that way forever in terms of having the the layout as it is.

Matt Considine (13:52)
That's a good one. Thank you, Professor. Level Dus. the Bagdrop and New Club Golf Society are in partnership with Titalist. And today's episode specifically, Professor, it's brought to you by the Titleist Vokey SM11 wedges. I was thinking about this this morning. Professor, when do you know it's time to replace your Vokey wedges in the background?

The Professor (14:13)
about five months after I should have replaced them. I'm definitely a creature of habit. I leave them and I wear out a toe mark. I was playing with Andy Stam in the St. Roll match. He's Man, you you hit your chips out on the toe Freddie Couples does, don't you? I go, Yeah, my I literally my wear mark gets off the grooves in some spots. no,

Ryan Gerard (14:30)
you

Matt Considine (14:30)
Same.

The Professor (14:30)
for me, I think I I notice it personally when I get into the late fall, you get some colder mornings with a little bit of moisture on the ground.

And all of a sudden that wedge isn't landing the distance that it's land you know, should be landing at. There's just the moisture's not getting out of the way. That's that's when I kind of judge it on.

Matt Considine (14:48)
Yeah, that's a good that's a good one there. Yeah, I think I'm I'm I get comf comfy, right? And I and I think I gotta stick with them probably longer than I need to. So here in Northeast Ohio, new club, Northeast Ohio, we got a fitting coming up on the books, October third, I believe it is. I'm you know, I would have usually waited, but I I'm gonna get some freshies in the back. I I've been playing pretty good. I wanna optimize the game. So you can too. Head over to tidalist.com.

They got all kinds of fitting events, fitting opportunities, whether you're part of a club or not, you can go to Titleist, you can get on there and find a certified fitter near you. thanks to our friends at Titleist. All right, professor, let's get on the show.

Ryan Gerard, welcome to the Bag Drop.

Ryan Gerard (15:35)
Guys, thanks for having me. Just excited, excited to some ball.

Matt Considine (15:40)
That's talk some ball. I was thinking about the professor's travels and his he just had an awesome week in Scotland. But I've thinking about your travels too. I I actually think your guys' travels coalesced and you you crossed each other's paths in the airport. Is that is that correct?

Ryan Gerard (15:57)
Yeah, there's only a couple people in the world that probably have a golf blueprint golf travel bag and when someone's putting that right in front of you at the Hartsfield Jackson Atlanta Delta Lounge, you kind of know who it might be. So, you know, we had a nice little chat there getting ready to go through security and just reconfirmed that this was going to happen. But he was going to play some fun golf. I was going to play some competitive golf.

And here we are.

The Professor (16:27)
I have to say, Ryan, I was I'm a bit of an introvert, typically, especially the airport. I just love to be locked in, headphones on, and just like get to my lounge and just relax. So when I heard that, is that the other golf bootprint? I kind of just was like, like wasn't gonna really turn and talk and just cut you out the corner of my eye and wait. I'm like, because we had never met. Obviously, Nico talked a ton about you. And I'm like, that's Ryan Gerard. And I was like, wait, didn't you just tap out? How it was what, maybe 90 minutes or

120 minutes after you just tapped out at East Lake at that time?

Ryan Gerard (16:57)
Yeah, I think we were on a time crunch. think we finished Eastlake, did some media, showered, went straight to the airport, and first guy I see walking in is the professor. So always a good omen.

Matt Considine (17:11)
He's a worldly man, Ryan.

He's a worldly man. I think that was the semi viral a pizza. We we should grab a pizza when you said your caddy at the at East Lake. Is that correct? Was that after that round?

Ryan Gerard (17:23)
I think that was final round of BMW. So we were going from St. Louis to Atlanta and I was like, hey man, like there's no food. Like, do you want to grab pizza and meet me at the plane? And I have a wonderful sponsor in NetJets that makes that possible. So you feel a little better bringing full-size melon mushrooms onto your own plane than bringing it onto a Delta One.

Matt Considine (17:48)
Yeah. Yeah. For everybody listening, don't don't do that on your commercial airline, please. You know, the guy with a full pie pouring over into your lap. net jets, I'm glad they they they make room for that. yeah, you know, you've had a ton of of moments like that, Ryan, that I think make you so relatable, but also as I said in my intro, just super thoughtful. one that I was watching live was the Scottish Open, a little coffee golf. I'm watching and you did a walk in talk.

Which, you know, sometimes those can stink. I'll be honest. Like sometimes you guys are out there, you know, competing in the moment. I don't know how you handle that. So maybe, maybe you could tell us how those go. But but something you said just just made me kind of perk up because I've always kind of saw a similar thing with my travels over to Scotland. But you described, you know, seeing a pub and then this little course right next to it where kids were playing for free or almost nothing. And

how you would love to see more of that in the US. And that's like something I've I've said myself. So I I'm just curious, what was that what did you see? if you know the place that great. If not, no worries. And then secondly, like wha how would you actually envision that that coming back to a place like where you grew up in Raleigh, North Carolina?

Ryan Gerard (19:04)
Yeah, I think that was the Gullen. It was in Gullen, so I'm pretty sure it was the Gullen kids course. There seems to be, that seems to be the only place that it could have been. You know, it's probably been 15 years, 12, 15 years since I stepped foot there. I've spent more time in North Baric and Edinburgh as of late the last few years. But it's the same thing with the North Baric Eden course or kids course, whatever they have there.

and just having the ability to get more people involved in golf, especially at a low barrier to entry with cost and in a very manageable sense, know, it's an intimidating game to go out there for four and a half hours and play 18 full holes and, you know, spend however much money on a round plus a cart, plus golf clubs, either renting or whatever.

It's a very intimidating game, but you've seen demand in things like Topgolf and Pop Stroke and just giving people something that's a little bit more tangible, like a par three course or a kids course, that's really, really cool. So that's kind of where the model started. I live in Jupiter, Florida, and we have something similar at the park.

There's like a par three course that's lighted. It's open till nine or 10 o'clock. There's a bar, guys get beers. couple buddies and I, actually went out and played probably in February this year. We played eight or nine holes at the park. It was me, a couple friends. Ended up letting the group behind us join and they let the group behind them join. So we're playing at 12 some and having a blast and a couple caddies from, you know, some local courses and a couple of the guys, some of the

some of their girlfriends and all of a sudden it's 15 people deep and we're having a fun time. So I think organically that's the best way to get people into golf in a sense that it's still traditionalist in a way where trying to have fun, follow the rules, learn etiquette, still play proper golf, like hit the shot from the tee box, get in the hole whilst

kind of modernizing it to make it more manageable for people that don't have as much free time and, you know, get kids into involved without having such a high barrier to entry. But I don't know, man, just make it fun. Like you look at the cradle at Pinehurst, you look at some of the stuff that Bandin does, those are awesome. They're more expensive than I'd like them to be, but they're also not super accessible locations. You know, I don't know how many people are driving 45 minutes to go play.

9-hole par 3 course, if there were more of those popping up, I think you'd see a lot of people showing up.

Matt Considine (21:49)
Yeah, when you were I probably took something different away from when you said that on that walk and talk. because I'm a parent now. My five year old's my oldest, and she is semi getting into golf. We got a first T chapter where we live, so she's in that and and really having fun. More the social side of it. I don't know if she's enjoying hitting the shots yet. But the thing I took away from that comment is it w when people parents

Take their kids, especially the young ones, they're all sitting there like in their car on their phone or just like at the clubhouse on their phone. And then when you said there's a pub right next to the course, I'm like, Well, hey, I would like a beer instead of, you know, just scrolling, maybe, you know, hanging out, talking to people. And that's what I took away from it. Love that.

The Professor (22:29)
Ryan, I'm so glad you brought up the park grind. we were fortunate enough. Well, I was fortunate enough to play it in June for the first time, and then we got to have Brian Conley on here, you know, to really dive into it and deep. And I think it is one of those great, great examples of trying to shift, especially the entry into golf as you bring up and you know, just make it fun. is this I'll just be transparent. Like, you know, I've hung around a bunch of professional golfers in my life and high-level golfers, and the

sort of narrative commentary you just gave there is I would say abnormal in that, you know, thinking about this in terms of actually growing the game, entry into the game. That's not to saying that, you know, a lot of people aren't thinking about that, but the comment on it explicitly is not all that common. Is that something you've thought about

Ryan Gerard (23:12)
you

The Professor (23:12)
for a while in golf? you know, going back to your childhood and looking at your entry into golf, or is that something that more like seeing places like the park and go into a gull and you're like, that's a little bit different than what we traditionally see. Maybe we need a little bit more of that.

Ryan Gerard (23:26)
I think it starts like kind of where I grew up. I grew up super lucky. I grew up at a public course called Bob Wigaring Golf Club in Northwest Raleigh and Roger Watson and Chip Watson who ran the place. They were super awesome at letting me, Carter Jenkins, Grayson Murray, Doc Redmond,

Zach Siebel, Jake Hutchinson, Quinn Riley, Stephen Franken, Michael Asasso, guys like that who all

The Professor (23:53)
Good players.

Matt Considine (23:54)
Hitter's row at Wildwood.

Holy book.

Ryan Gerard (23:57)
who all either played college golf, professional golf in some way, they let us just kind of have free reign of the place. And not many golf courses would let a bunch of 12 to 16 year olds go play two foursomes at 2.30 in the afternoon on a Friday and just go get it. And we tore up their chipping green. Like we were out there all the time hitting random shots. So I think I was lucky

in a sense that that's kind of the situation that I grew up in. The golf course itself taught me how to play golf, but it didn't, it's not a PGA Tour level golf course. It's not a championship golf course that I think would prepare me to play a major or, it's not what you would expect from the best players in the world to want to hang out there every day to get better. But in terms of

for me getting to college or me getting to elite level junior golf that, you know, prepares me for the future. I think it did an amazing job and that's a huge part of why I am where I am, was just having that opportunity to one have access to the golf course, but also be around people that kind of understood that's like, hey, like let them be creative. Like let them go hit

The Professor (25:15)
Yeah.

Ryan Gerard (25:16)
weird shots from the Chippin Green. Let them go.

from the other side of the parking lot and chip across or hit a web shot across, let people be creative. And the more opportunity you give in terms of slopes and land and whatever it might be, but also just putting a place out there for kids to grow up, be creative, have fun, that's...

That's kind of what makes golf fun is like when you can kind of choose your own adventure, choose your own shot, understand what you're getting into. And, you know, as you know, kind of going back to professional golfers, not really talking like that. It's it's hard as a professional golfer to think in that standpoint, because you're almost always thinking about like, how do I fine tune my game to go from?

1.2 strokes gain per round to 1.4 to 1.5. Like where am I gaining, you know, a little bit on my chipping? Like is that coming from being short-sighted? My short-sighted chips aren't as good, my long-sighted, and that's why, you know, I'm lucky enough now that I can afford to be a member at four private courses. And, you know, that's not very accessible for everyone. And I understand that I'm in the strong minority, but that's, it's my job. That's why

play well is because I invest in putting myself in opportunities to do that. And we had so much fun going out to the park or the North Barrett course right by the Marine Hotel where everyone stays for the tournament and playing and growing up playing the cradle, going to the kids course at Golan. those are kind of some of the more fun experiences and.

It makes you realize that golf isn't just a job. It makes you realize that golf is just so cool. And it kind of, it's like the haves and have nots. Sometimes you got to go into work mode and sometimes you go into fun mode and you definitely want to embrace it when you're, when you have the opportunity to have more fun.

Matt Considine (27:15)
Man, I I that is so cool because I always look at everybody's golf journey as this like ver really vast spectrum, right? From first hole in a club to where you're at. And it it's it's stuff like, you know, overseas, I'll combine two two things that recently happened on this show. Like somebody pointed out that overseas, you know, they have championship golf courses next to kids courses or the

championship course next to the pitch and putt. And it's almost like they don't try to combine the two. Your comments about Wildwood, it sounds like Wildwood wasn't the championship course, but it was like it had to have been a good place to start, right? And what what elements of Wildwood, but I know it was a the people, right? Sounds like the people made that opportunity for you and all those other absolute studs, by the way, to to learn and get good at the game of golf. But were were you guys

encouraged to get out on the course? Like, were tea times made for the the kids there? Like w give me a little insight to that because I I I think we just had Operation 36. It's a program that it really pushes out of Raleigh actually, Matthew Regan. He he really pushes playing versus you know s introducing people to standing on the range and beating balls. And so I'm just curious, was your childhood more about playing and and did the course make time for that for you guys?

Ryan Gerard (28:41)
It was all about getting on the golf course. The best practice that you can get is getting on the golf course and learning how to get it in the hole. But like, it wasn't like we had standing tee time. So was just, hey, there's an opening. You guys want to go play? Go. Like the junior membership cost was super low. We could play unlimited golf.

there might've been a time constraint on it. Like, don't walk at seven in the morning on a Sunday. But for the most part, they just let us do whatever we wanted. I remember being, I don't know, nine, 10 years old. My parents lived on the right side of the 15th hole and we'd call the pro shop, be like, hey, is there anyone coming down one? No? All right, we'll jump over to two, play two, three, four, five, six, seven at seven o'clock at night. Just play until it gets dark.

and just kind of go out. And I think the golf course itself was, it had a lot of weird undulations. You'd never really got a flat lie. There were a lot of overhanging trees and kind of centerline trees and some weird bunkers. you know, it wasn't exactly what a golf architecture nerd would be raving about, but I felt like the shots there, you never got a flat lie. You never got.

just a straight stock eight iron. It was always about how can you work the ball or how can you see the window or do you feel comfortable when the ball's six inches below your feet and there's water left and you got to start it over it and trust that it's gonna fade back. I felt like a lot of those elements that you kind of just found out there probably by accident just seemed to work really well.

shaped my game, shaped a lot of other guys' games to a point where when you felt like you were in a weird spot in a tournament, like I've already seen it a million times, like I'm just gonna go hit the shot and have fun with it. Whereas, you know, anyone can hit a stock 8 iron if you stand on the rain and hit it all day.

The Professor (30:40)
Man, I just wanna package up the first 20 minutes of this pod and just say, hey, like this is this is what we need more in golf, you know, like create places like this that offer these experiences, especially for kids getting into the game. And this is a style of golf that should be. And Ryan, I wanna obviously we're gonna get to your current state of your game and some things current life, but I'm gonna push forward right now.

you're obviously passionate about the game. You're passionate about these opportunities you had as a child and what that did for your love of the game and who you are now. Have you got to the place where you thought, like, hey, my impact 20 years from now could be creating these places? Cause I've always maintained it's very hard for Matt and I, we overly preach. We probably preach too much about what golf could use, these places like that. And you know, it's within my club, like I'll never have the political power.

be able to get those things done. It's just not my personality and I just I'm not from here. But when you're a a professional, like in your case, especially one of your caliber, you know, people listen. If you you enter in any, if you came to Athens Country Club, became a member, people would listen to you right away and say, like, hey guys, what if we think about doing this? Is that something that's on your mind at all as a professional? As you get older and eventually, you know, obviously right now it's win, win, win, win, win.

Ryan Gerard (31:55)
Thanks.

The Professor (31:56)
But eventually it will be like, okay, how do I give back? Have you thought about that at all with just all the the way you

You're so cerebral about these experiences.

Ryan Gerard (32:05)
I think eventually, yeah, I'd love to do it. I think right now I don't have enough free time to actually

The Professor (32:11)
Of course.

Ryan Gerard (32:12)
go implement, you know, trying to do some of that stuff. But I think if you could create something like the park's lighted par three course and every

major metropolitan city in North America, you would see golf boom even more than it already has, but you'll see kids getting involved. You'll see parents and children kind of hanging out more. Like I think it would be awesome. I mean, ideally like I'd love to, you know, find some places that I frequent, you know, I'm from Raleigh. Gil Hance just did a big

part three course at our first tee. So maybe not there, but you know, some other places that are close to home, try and bring something like that that's not just accessible, but like fun, right? Like you want, and I just got back from playing golf in Portugal in my off week this past week. And you kind of look at golf like if it's not a tournament,

or not a championship golf course, like you want it to be ridiculous. Like you want it to be reachable par fives. You want there to be shots over water. You want there to be big slopes that you can, you want a chip shot to have three different ways of getting to the hole. It's not just like one standard flat chip. And the place that I was at had some really cool elements like that where, know, hey, there's a drivable R4 that's looks like 18 at TPC Sawgrass and it's 300 to the green, but.

You could also hit seven iron wedge. You want to have opportunity for really, really cool golf shots. And I think the more. Not ridiculousness, but the more. Slope, the more craziness that you kind of add to like a nine hole par three course or 12 hole par three and par four course, or just giving people more variety if it's not a full length championship style golf course like the more fun people are going to have and the more they're going to learn.

because the most interesting shots in golf are the ones that you have to take on risk or the ones that are around the green that you have multiple options. And you really want people to turn their brains on, think about the shots, have fun hitting them, but also like give them room to kind of maneuver the ball in different ways, use a slope to their advantage, take on risk, hit that driver at the green, whatever it might be. And just like...

You don't want the same old plan shot over and over again.

Matt Considine (34:48)
Ryan, the just reading about a little bit on your on your childhood, I I I was it seems like you know what you just described is is such a creative process, right? Of evaluating the option, selecting it, like and and you can tell you have fun in that. I read that you had played the violin growing up as well as chess. And I think that like a lot of the data the professors told us on the show multiple times, a lot of the data s shows

against specialization too early because kids are developing their brain, like you should play a bunch of sports, but we don't always cross over into like, you know, other cerebral challenges and and things like that. w were were you on the chess club? Like where how's how's your chess game today? And are you still picking up the strings and and letting it flow?

Ryan Gerard (35:38)
I played violin for 12 or 13 years. you know, so basically from first grade all the way through a little bit of college, the chess game, you know, I was in some sort of chess club, probably in like middle school, but then I was actually like, I think it was the president of badminton club in high school. Like just,

The Professor (35:59)
Ha ha ha.

Ryan Gerard (36:01)
just random things that

You know, you find that you like and I remember they got rid of the bowling alley in the student union at UNC and put in a bunch of ping pong tables. So we go in there and play table tennis all the time. And I got so fed up by just getting beat by all these kids that I went and took a table tennis lesson and turned my game around and some point in college. So I think, yeah, the specialization of

You know, getting into golf immediately and just like only focusing on that like it can lead to burnout. It can lead to, you know, not having the best, you know, hand eye motor skills, athleticism to to a certain extent. But I think someone Paul Vasenko, who's the head of Scotty Cameron Tour, he's kind of. Scotty's right hand guy right now, he's talked to me a lot about.

how he thinks that my playing the violin and the rhythm that I have from that experience for however many years has been super helpful in my golf swing, my putting stroke, tempo in general, how I can walk and carry myself on the golf course and not really feel like I'm getting too quick or too slow, just kind of the cadence of everything staying very equal and that feeling calm.

And that's a really interesting kind of...

point that he makes that

Matt Considine (37:27)
Yeah.

Ryan Gerard (37:27)
I never would think about. It's just kind of what I do. And for someone to kind of come from the outside, have studied a lot of things and say, hey, I think this really helps you for these reasons. That's been really cool. So I'm not saying everyone needs to sign their kit up for violin, but I just think having a more well-rounded personality when you get to

14 or 15 years old and then you have to start specializing because college you can really only play one sport. You gotta be prepared for it. Kids are really good at golf, really young. Miles Russell is fantastic and he's 17 years old. Like, you gotta be ready. But just having that ability up into a certain point to be more well-rounded, learn how to throw a football, learn how to

play badminton, ride a bike, whatever it might be. I think that's been really helpful. you know, it just makes me feel a little bit more normal as a human, not like a golf robot, like more of like, just like a dude who likes to play golf and really like sports and, you know, has some cool off course things that he does every now and again.

The Professor (38:44)
Ryan, you brought up Scotty Cameron. I gotta ask real quick for Nico. How many how many Camerons are in the basement right now?

Ryan Gerard (38:50)
We got a few in the basement. I got three with me. got a really sweet Newport 2 GSS Top Dot that I played at Augusta this year that I rolled really well at Augusta that's kind of in the rotation, but been putting really good with this new Phantom 3 that just kind of starting to come out. And that's been good. But I think we're probably 15 or so just kind of hanging out.

But you gotta, you gotta, the putter is a very finicky club. You gotta make sure that it feels comfortable, but can't be afraid to switch it if things start going weird. You never want her to feel too comfortable in her spot. She's gotta

Matt Considine (39:32)
Yeah.

Ryan Gerard (39:33)
earn the place in the golf bag.

The Professor (39:35)
Meanwhile, I've had my mid-slant in my bag on you know, with exception of about six months since twenty or two thousand and one, I think. My little Scotty mid-slant. I appreciate the circle T backpack you were rocking in the airport too. Now I wanna jump back. You brought up you know, the table tennis example, you're tired of getting your butt kicked, you and took a lesson real quick so you could return the favor to everyone. And I know talking to Nico and even our quick conversation.

at at the airport where I'm like, this this guy's a competitor. Like, why is he getting on an overnight after, you know, I I don't even know what the paycheck was at toward championship. I'm assuming in millions of dollars, whatever, but he's gonna jump on a plane and go to Switzerland. Beautiful place, but to work. I'm like, this guy likes you you're just a competitor. You're a dog, you know, you you wanna you wanna win, you wanna push, you want to get better. Where did that start? Was that at Wildwood with the your buddies? No, everybody's getting good at the same time or

Something your dad instilled into you, you know, where where does that competitive gene come from?

Ryan Gerard (40:33)
I mean, I think you just kind of grow up either really, really, really never wanting to lose or just kind of becoming complacent. And I was always the kid that never wanted to lose. And I just remember growing up at Wildwood, I was the youngest guy out there. know, Grayson was six years older than me, Doc's two or three years older than me.

Carter Jenkins, four years old, or Zach Seibolt, four years old, or Stephen Franken, three years old. Like, Lesasso's younger than me. Some other guys are like around my age, but we were always the younger ones. So, you when I roll up to the golf course and I'm sixth grade, seventh grade, like those guys are juniors and seniors in high school. And if I'm going to, you know, compete with them and they're getting ready to go to Wake Forest, North Carolina, UNCG, Winthrop, wherever, like they're getting ready to go play.

elite division one golf. I needed to bring my A game and I just never I just I just didn't want to lose and I would lose a lot and that pissed me off so I would get better. But then I think you know when I was in high school like I was seventh grade playing on the high school golf team like I was playing against guys who were older than me who were better than me at the time and you had to find a way to

to you had to find a way to be competitive and just really kind of hone those skills. I think it comes from something intrinsically inside me screwed up in a way that I hate losing more than I like winning. And I hate the feeling of, you know, letting my team down or letting whatever down. Like that's like to my core, like something that I just it's a visceral reaction. But

It also comes from putting myself in competitive situations from a very young age where I was always an underdog, where I was always kind of like the youngest person in the room and having to figure out how to be competitive and keep things close or even win. And you just learn a lot about yourself in those moments where it's like, man, I can compete, I beat this kid seven times in a row in a putting contest, like, he wants to go an eighth time.

I'm gonna beat him day time. you just put yourself in those situations and you have to want it. And you have to want it for yourself more than anyone else can want it for you. Because if people want it for you, that's great. You can kind of want it, but dude, like I would be nothing without this game. Like I would do anything to be competitive. And you gotta kind of look at it. Like there's nothing else besides.

me and this golf course right now today and I'm gonna go out there and leave it all out here. And like, whether I make a bad swing, it doesn't matter. I'm gonna be so committed to the shot that I try and pull off and I'm gonna make the right decision. And when I get a chance to push my chips in the middle, like I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna hit that three wood over the water to the tucked pin and do what I need to do to give myself a chance.

Matt Considine (43:37)
Th there was another thing you said, I can't remember where I heard it when you said it, but entering into college, Ryan, that you had e irrational confidence, which is a phrase I didn't realize I had until later in life. But now looking back, it's like, yeah, that was irrational as hell. But but it it it really like kind of led to you know good things. And I'm just curious, like

After putting yourself in thousands of these competitive situations now, through you know, the Corn Ferry Tour, the Canadian Tour before that, PJ Tour, is that irrational confidence? Do you still think it's irrational? Or does it for guys like yourself that have been on a steady ascension, is it like at a certain point, does it just become rational? Like rational confidence, or or is there always a layer of irrationality to it?

Ryan Gerard (44:28)
think it's irrational in the fact that at the time I was not nearly as good as I wanted to believe that I was. Like I rolled into UNC my freshman year with Ben Griffin as a senior being a preseason first team All-American and you know showing up every day like yeah I'm gonna beat this guy and whatever.

There were other really good kids on our team. We'll register Austin Head, Jose Montano, Josh Martin. Like there were just absolute studs on our team. And I rolled up my freshman year with a shirt that said Mr. Clutch on it and basically made it like my life's mission to make their chipping contest and putting contest hell. And that was kind of where it started. But

I think, yeah, when you transition to the skill level reaching the expectation, that's where it becomes more rational. And Ted Scott is like probably one of the best experts on this topic and he'll never admit it. like he talked to me a lot earlier this year about the best golf happens when your expectations and your reality line up.

You know, when you expect to play really good, but you're swinging it poorly, you're never going to play good. When you expect to play badly, but you're actually swinging it well, like you're not going to live up to your full potential. Even if you expect mediocre and you're playing mediocre, good things can happen because you're lining up what should be and what is together and you can kind of make a way around it. So.

I think the rationality comes from the cockiness, the competitive fire, the skill level. It all starts to materialize to a point where eventually maybe I am catching up to where I think I should be. And when all those things start to line up, that's when you can kind of unlock that next level of, hey, I actually am good. I actually can pull this shot off. I actually...

and making the right decisions to then go a step further and be like, you know, I don't need to be perfect to win this golf tournament. I don't need to have my A game to win this golf tournament. I can pick my spots. You if I really don't like this, I can play 30 feet away from this hole and rely on my putter or rely on whatever else. it then becomes, opens a lot of doors when you, when your mindset, your skill level, your confidence.

but also just your overall willingness to make the right decision. Kind of this balance between them all starts to make sense to you in your mind and you can kind of go forward with the proper amount of ability, but also structure and what you want to do.

The Professor (47:26)
This is very insightful, Ryan. And I think Matt and I both love and appreciate anybody's pursuit of greatness and getting to the elite level. It's such a just unique place to be. And one of the things I want to ask about that, you just, you know, talked about putting the right structure in place. I imagine it's difficult, especially when you okay, you got all this alignment now, right? And you're top twenty player in the world. Like your peer competitors are the Scotty Shufflers of the world, are the

You know, it's you're you're road beater. That's what you all are now. And you're amongst that. So when you get in that world, my question is, how do you make sure you're making the right decisions in terms of like, okay, I can still get better, right? Like I yeah, I'm yeah, I want to be world number one. And then I want to still get like, how do you actually then choose this is what I need to do to get better when you are now so elite that, you know, a lot of people I think that's when they start falling off. Clearly that's not going to be your case with as competitive as you are.

Ryan Gerard (48:20)
Yeah, I hope not. I think it's. It's it's hard to, you know, just reinvent the wheel, right? Like I feel like. I've gotten to where I've gotten because I've stayed true to myself. I've owned my swing that doesn't look great. I've fine tuned by putting eyes gotten more consistent with my short game. I've added a strengthened physio guy that.

We've now gone from 176 ball speed to 182 ball speed with the driver. you know, you're adding all these moving parts together and they're just like little increases here, little increase here. And we're just going to kind of continue.

finding these little things that we can add. It's almost like you're adding just a little bit every single month, every single week to try and get a little bit better. And we're never gonna change the bass structure. We're never gonna go off the rails and do a wholesale like switch. I feel like I am confident enough in

my process and how I've gotten here that I know it's good enough to win golf tournaments at the highest level. It's just how can I make my bad rounds more consistent? How can I make my good rounds just a little better? How can I, you know, make my body hold up over time? How can I use the experience that I'm now gaining in year three on the PGA Tour to make it so that year four, year five, year six are

Less taxing on the body. I know when I get into the spot right of hole 12 at Torrey Pines South course like that it has a tendency to do this and it's a bunch of little things that add up over time, but I think the big thing is yet you want to win. You want to be competitive, but. I I'm not just going to. Go start over and just try and beat Scotty Scheffler. That's just not it's.

There's no way that that works out well for me. I just need to do what I'm doing, be confident in it, and just kind of keep making those gradual steps. And, you know, if a problem arises, you can address it as needed. But like, I'm not going to go full Tiger and switch to Hank Ainy and try and reinvent the wheel because the game's too easy. There's no way that that's going to be good for what I need to do.

The Professor (50:54)
Yeah, it's still amazing the number of times he did that. You but now you did bring up Ted Scott earlier and obviously Ted's provided some mentorship. Do you also look to any of the other players out there to see what they're doing and maybe try to learn from that while you're doing this incremental approach? Like, okay, I want to get a little bit better here. Or are you more like, okay, I'm gonna be internalist and just figure it out myself?

Ryan Gerard (51:16)
I think I like to watch other guys do certain things. And I'll ask a couple of questions here and there, but guys, you know, they like to stick to themselves. You know, it's competitive. It's financial. This is their job. Like they're not just going to give you the secrets to the trade, but like, you know, there are some guys who have been super gracious with their time. Like Russell Henley has been great.

in terms of like I asked him a couple questions about chipping last year and he kind of went through like 10 minutes at the US Open at Oakmont like his system for chipping out of thick rough that was really insightful to me. I watch a lot of shots that Scottie hits and a lot of shots that Russell hits just because I feel like. You know, Rory hits awesome golf shots. He's an anomaly.

Like physically he's an anomaly, the way that his hips rotate and then stop and then rotate again. Like I can't do that.

The Professor (52:17)
Yeah.

Ryan Gerard (52:20)
That's not in my wheelhouse, but like I feel like I can relate a bit to, you know, a Scotty Scheffler who's got a bit of a homemade swing. It's extremely repeatable and he's so elite at doing it. Like I want to watch the guy that

is so good at hitting the golf shot the way that he wants to hit it. And I know I got a little bit of press for like saying there's some shot that I watched him hit last year in Houston where he, the way that he takes speed off and still hits high and spinny, like he can bridge gaps between distances like super well. Like that's something that I'm still working on. Like, you know, when I try and hit a knockdown shot.

It takes flight off the golf ball and when you get on firm greens, it doesn't want to hold as easily. I'm, I I'm still working on that. And I think that's something that I've taken from him, but some, guy like Russell, man, like just, he is such a good player. Like that

The Professor (53:23)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan Gerard (53:24)
guy is maybe the best, like just golfer on the planet. Like in terms of like just getting golf ball where it needs to go.

The Professor (53:33)
Yeah.

Ryan Gerard (53:35)
And seeing how he does things repeatable, seeing his process, seeing his routine, seeing the way that he works, like that stuff's really insightful to me. And I learn a lot by just watching guys go through that process more than I learned from like asking or watching, you know, some golf channel program about instruction. Like to me, I feel like it's more about

Can you pick up on little things and how can you then apply them to your life and your game?

Matt Considine (54:10)
I wanna I wanna I wanna dig in inside a ball a little bit more there because this is something I do a lot. Like I'm always and I think a lot of people listening can relate to is I'm always watching other people and I try not to be when I was a kid, I was probably more envious of, you know, the guy that has the Rory type disposition and probably wasn't aware enough to think that I had you know, didn't have that whatever that is. But like, how do you

And this kind of relates to one of your all time lines too, which I almost spit out my drink when I heard it, Ryan, that Adam Scott is the his swing is the Mona Lisa and yours is graffiti on a rail car. that is gold. but like it there's truth in the joke, but if I'm watching like there's stuff you can obviously learn from Adam Scott, but if I'm playing with him, I'm gonna watch how he s hits you know, long iron and then the image of of his swinging.

is the thing that like stays with me and I feel like I'm trying to, you know, be something I'm not. Whereas what I think you're talking about is more is it is it like his grip position or his his ball position or is it is is it like things that are that small versus may maybe when I'm doing I'm looking at the the the the totality of it and there's stuff that I should probably be ignoring that I'm watching and there's stuff that I can actually apply.

Does that make sense? That might be a total weird question.

Ryan Gerard (55:36)
No, that makes a lot of sense. think there's so much noise when you watch someone so physically gifted hit a golf ball. You get enthralled in the whole presentation of the smoothness of the golf swing, the footwork, the balance, the holding the finish, the sound. Like you get so wrapped up in watching Adam or Rory or, you know.

I'd even throw Ludwig in there, like, man, that guy's

The Professor (56:05)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan Gerard (56:07)
special. Watching those guys hit it, it's so impressive. You kind of lose the individualistic components that you're kind of looking at. I'll go back to my sophomore year of college. playing with Matt Wolfe in a college event, and he hit this bunker shot.

at the left side of the ninth hole of Papago from just like dead, like down here in this bunker. And he got it as high and as soft as I've ever seen someone hit a bunker shot. And partially that's because the way that he swings the golf club allows him to get so shallow and underneath it that the ball wants to pop straight up. But he had his hands so low and he had his ball so far forward and he kind of had the face open in a way that allowed him to get into position to then make the swing that he made and get into that.

that you can go back and look at it and say, hey, from this setup position that he would had his hands low, ball forward, face open, kind of had the shaft leading just a hair, he could get outside, cut across it, and that ball's gonna go straight up. Like I can go and replicate, maybe not to the degree in which that he did that, but I can go spend some time and try and figure out how to add something like that to my arsenal where.

Now I have a bunker shot that comes out a little higher and softer than I thought was possible. And all it was was just simply sitting there, paying attention to set up, seeing something really cool, seeing the way in which it was done, and just then going and working on it myself to try and make it my own from that standpoint.

Matt Considine (57:48)
That's actually really helpful.

The Professor (57:49)
No I'm

Matt Considine (57:50)
That's really helpful for for me 'cause it's like and the takeaway has to be it trialed, right? Like you gotta go play with it yourself. You got you gotta make it your own in a way. I probably am missing that step as well.

The Professor (58:02)
getting a little bit of a PTSD now too because I'm thinking back to college when coach put up a a video of Ernie Ells beside my swing and like was like swing like this and there's just no way my body could ever move as elegantly and smoothly as Ernie Ells did, right? I think that's a perfect example of you you see a swing that looks so it's just so physically gifted that the the idea of chasing that swing just isn't gonna work.

Matt Considine (58:27)
Not not to mention I don't think you're six four, two f two twenty or whatever, you know

The Professor (58:31)
There's

nothing we're nothing alike. Yeah, he's he's two of me, basically. I want to ask one more follow-up question on this sort of this push to get better and that you know you've in other parts of this interview you talked about the importance of playing and having fun with golf. How do you balance those in terms of getting better? You know, in terms of what's the reality of that? Like are you a guy that

Yeah, gonna go tinker in this 'cause I saw Wolf did this. I'm gonna try to get in a bunker. I'm gonna spend thirty minutes just getting that feel. Now I'm gonna go play a bunch. Or you a grinder in the range. How do you dabble in both? Cause obviously you're very committed to the emotional side of the game as well as to the technical side.

Ryan Gerard (59:09)
I think it's just a lot of time at the golf course, just a lot of reps. I am lucky enough that the places that I practice have really, really good facilities so I can be super efficient in what I do. When I step on the range in Florida at one of the golf courses, I can hit 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, whatever.

five yard increment wedges to small target greens that is like PJ Tour average proximity from those distances going down the range. So like I have very instant feedback to the shot that I hit from the yardage that I hit it, whatever. That makes my practice so much easier so that I can spend more time on the golf course at the short game area, wherever it need to be in order to feel like I'm

I'm getting better. But I think the biggest thing is, you know, if practice is boring, if practices monotonous, you feel like you're in a rut, like you got to be competitive either with yourself or with someone else. You got to turn it into a game. I would say I would say like I'm not someone that loves running, right? Like the physical, like just, you know, training for, you know, a 5k, not my favorite thing,

The Professor (1:00:28)
No, no.

Ryan Gerard (1:00:29)
but I could.

Matt Considine (1:00:29)
Me neither, Ryan.

I'm with ya on that.

Ryan Gerard (1:00:32)
but I could go play pickup hoops at the YMCA for two hours. And like,

Matt Considine (1:00:35)
Same.

Ryan Gerard (1:00:36)
I would be tired, but I would still get the same amount of cardio in that I would get if training for a marathon. know, make it a game. Like, hey man, like, you know, I gotta hit five balls out of these next 10 between these two windows and these trees. And if I hit those five balls, I get to go get ice cream after this. But if not,

I gotta do 15 pushups on the range right here in front of all these people and they're gonna be like, why did you do that? And it's like, because I sucked at hitting my driver and I didn't hit it in the window. So just anything to kind of make it have some sort of consequence, anything to make it fun, anything to give your brain something to really latch onto, but like give yourself a reward and give yourself a punishment. And it could be as small as, hey, like I get to go, you know, watch the game for an extra 30 minutes tonight.

at my friend's house or I get to go get ice cream on the way home. But like make it so that there's something interesting and there's something on the line. And I feel like that'll really break up monotonous practice. And I know people don't have a lot of time after work sometimes to go, you you got 45 minutes between five and six to go hit balls, like be efficient with your time, but like give yourself something to look forward to, give yourself something to work towards.

And I think that really helps break up some of the routine and some of the monotony and some of the frustration that goes along with

The Professor (1:02:09)
Yeah, you're you're spot on. I mean, I I do need to clarify, I only run because of my own self-hatred. You know, and I as an academic, most of us have this huge loathing self-hatred. And it's my I hate running. And so I force myself to do it because it's like this is me hating myself and getting that out. Guess the same reason some people do like boxing and stuff like that. I gotta ask, I promise I would ask this at some point. You know, we've now dabbled in practice and a lot of the stuff you you're bringing up, you know.

my our dear friend Nico learned from you and you know we incorporated golf blueprint in different ways and all that. So the question is, why does he still suck? Why did he why did he never get over get over the the hill, you know, if he's still listening, he needs some insights

Matt Considine (1:02:47)
'Cause I will

The Professor (1:02:49)
into that.

Matt Considine (1:02:49)
well I will add before you answer that, Ryan, is I I didn't know Nico as well, but I got to know him like in in a quick dosage. I think he's like every bit as competitive as what you're describing of yourself. Like he's one of the most competitive dudes I've ever met. But to to the professor's point, why does he why does he suck?

Ryan Gerard (1:03:08)
Well, can we talk about his new job real quick?

The Professor (1:03:10)
Yeah.

Ryan Gerard (1:03:11)
Is that allowed? I mean.

Matt Considine (1:03:13)
I

The Professor (1:03:13)
Protecting

protecting the nation's interests, yes.

Ryan Gerard (1:03:16)
He's the best man. He,

The Professor (1:03:17)
Yes.

Ryan Gerard (1:03:18)
he does like his motors a hundred percent all the time. He doesn't stop.

The Professor (1:03:23)
Always on.

Ryan Gerard (1:03:24)
But I think that's part of the reason why it sucks.

is because there's too many thoughts, there's too much noise, he always wants to experiment. He'll go like, yeah, I'm doing a one length set this week. yeah, now I got a three length set, is pitching wedge nine iron, eight iron the same length, the seven, six and five are the same length and his four and his three are the same length. And it's like, well yeah, dude, you're switching your clubs all the time. Like you have a track man on the range and you're like practice balls. Like that's not gonna work.

And also it doesn't help when you hit the ball 195 miles an hour and you just don't know where it's going. So like, I like picking on him, but he, he's so good at being an athlete that sometimes he forgets to be a golfer. And I think you see that with a lot of high quality professional athletes that then take up the game of golf or, you know,

The competitiveness is there, the athleticism is there. There's a certain art to the game of golf that can't be replicated and it can't be undersold, which is.

not only mental, but it is like the touch, the feel, the trust that you have to have in what you're doing. You can swing an eight iron perfectly on plane from a flat range tee with no wind in Scottsdale, Arizona, when it's 80 degrees outside to a target. But can you do that?

from a bad lie in the back of a divot over water when the wind's blown into you and you got to take some off of it because it's too much club if you hit it full. Like how do you adapt to all of these conditions being thrown at you at once? And can you handle being uncomfortable in that situation? And I think the answer for a lot of people is they can handle one or two things being thrown at them.

it's when it's four or five that it becomes crazy. And learning how to be comfortable while you're uncomfortable is such a skill. And it's not easy. And I don't even think I'm close to mastering it. But you have to feel so good about your process. You have to be so committed to what you're trying to do that when you get into a situation where you don't know

what the outcome could be. You don't love it. you feel everything over the ball feels like the alarms are going off. Like, hey, this is not right. Like this is not it. Can you still be so steadfast in what you want to do and trust and commit to what you're going to do to then still put a good swing on it and just live with whatever the result becomes? Because I feel like sometimes

You go through the numbers. Hey, it's this club. It's this wind, this air density or this whatever. And my little eyes sitting down and I can't be short because there's a bunker there. Like there's so much that goes into a shot at a certain point that no two shots are ever going to be the same. Every single one's unique. You can feel like you have the same shot, but it's never truly going to be the same thing. You're always kind of

looking for something new or different. Nico's really athletic, but his touch isn't there because he's a baseball player. not to pick on him more, like, you know, he's swinging for the fences. He's not swinging to hit, you know, a bloop over the shortstop set.

The Professor (1:07:22)
He also, what loves to see curve too, right? Wants to see that

Ryan Gerard (1:07:27)
what?

The Professor (1:07:28)
that that the stock, you know, the little flighted eight iron that falls three yards, that's not his his eyes never sees that one.

Ryan Gerard (1:07:35)
He's like that Mac Boasher guy on Instagram that's slinging 60-yard draws up there in Canada. Like that's, that's his MO.

Matt Considine (1:07:45)
Yeah, it's I think like when we were talking about creativity earlier, I felt like, you know, Ryan, you'd be like a like a Rembrandt, maybe, you know, Da Vinci. I think who's the guy that cut off his ear? Like Nico's the Van Gogh. Like he's just going

The Professor (1:07:57)
Can go, yeah.

Matt Considine (1:07:58)
he's going so creative with it that it's like, boy, we're we're off the rails now. We're trying all kinds of stuff. that you know, I'm glad

Ryan Gerard (1:08:05)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (1:08:06)
I I really wanted to touch on the mental game with with you, Ryan, just 'cause so many of

Of you know, amateur golfers, aspiring golfers, people that just want to see their index be better, want to compete in the club championship. Like it's the biggest area of weakness for most, or the area of of possible improvement. And there's something that I got a kick out of watching Chasing Sunday, the the new mic'd up series NFL Films is doing with you guys on tour. And and you just turn to JP or caddy after missing a putt early in the round, and you're like,

Dude, let me be mad. Let me be mad. And I I I'm a big positive self-talk guy, right? So like I I knew that I need to to talk to myself. I need to be careful of how I talk to myself. But like you saying, let me be mad and and you know, telling yourself you stink sometimes. Like, honestly, it's a thing I see I see a lot with the very best players. Is that an earned thing? Like, would you maybe a better way to ask this question is would you ever let your 12 year old self

Talk to Ryan the way that you do now, like in your career. Or or are you just at a place where like it you know how to motivate yourself and not not not discourage yourself or not like convince yourself that you you stink. 'Cause I think a lot of people out there, amateurs especially, they convince themselves that they stink. And so therefore they do.

Ryan Gerard (1:09:27)
Yeah, I think a couple of really good points. I think the first thing is like, I know I don't stink, right? Like it's just in that moment. That's what I'm saying to get the frustration out. And that's kind of my mental reset is like, dude, you're such a loser. Like, like that helps me feel better for the next shot.

And right, like we always talk about the most important shot is the next one that you're gonna hit. Whatever you have to do to get yourself ready to hit the next shot after whatever you might've just done, like that's what it is. I also think frustration can be channeled in a good way sometimes. Now I think positivity also can be and it's very personality dependent.

Right? you know, when you're a coach on a team, right, you have different players that respond to different things, right? You have your guys that respond to, you know, being a hard ass, like you got to ride them, you got to yell at them. You also have guys that respond to like compliments and telling them good job. And I think it's learning who you are and learning what you respond best to.

And I've found that being pissed off is one of my superpowers. I talked to my sports psychologist about this a lot. The best golf shots that I hit or sometimes the best like just swings that I make are like right after I just three putt or right after I just do something really boneheaded. Like I can almost guarantee that the next shot is going to be really good just because I'm frustrated. There's not a whole lot of thinking. It's just

Yeah, we're getting it back right here. And if you're just going and you rip it and it goes right down the fairway or it's a it's a very thoughtless process that you just trust and you just go for it. So. I think that's personality, but I also think it's yeah, you got to earn the right to be frustrated. You can't be a 30 handicap, play golf three times a year and be like, I like.

I suck. It's like, well, yeah, you do suck, but like, you can't say that to yourself because you haven't, you haven't had enough good shots to know where, where the line between good, mediocre and bad is. And, good for me is different than good for Nico is different for good from the professors different from good format. Like it's a sliding scale and I don't even want to know how many shots like

I would have to give the professor because he would fully probably beat me with how many shots I'd have to give him strictly because

Matt Considine (1:12:06)
Well he'd be running the calculations

and make sure like the teen

The Professor (1:12:08)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (1:12:08)
grounds and where the pins like he would, but it'd be a math equation

Ryan Gerard (1:12:11)
But,

Matt Considine (1:12:11)
for him.

Ryan Gerard (1:12:12)
but that's the great

The Professor (1:12:12)
That's right.

Ryan Gerard (1:12:13)
thing about, that's the great thing about golf is we can all play against each other at a very equal level, no matter how good or bad you are. And I think people need to kind of take that one step further. it's like, Hey, my, good shot doesn't need to be the shot that you see on TV that you see Scotty Scheffler hit. My

The Professor (1:12:32)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan Gerard (1:12:33)
good shot needs to be the shot that keeps me in the hole, the shot that, you know,

puts me in a position where the next shot is set up for success. The putt from 30 feet that comes up a foot and a half short, that's a tap in for par instead of, I gave it a chance to go in, but I also hit it five feet past. And I think you see a lot of people, again, maybe watching too much golf online or on TV that then want to emulate that, which is awesome.

But if your ability isn't matching what the people that you see online and on TV's ability, it's very difficult to recreate that. And it's also really difficult to put yourself in the best position to play well as a sixth handicap at your local golf course, because you're doing yourself a disservice by trying to take on that much risk or that much.

Ambition with a golf shot. You're just going to put yourself in more danger to the score that you want to shoot the match that you're playing whatever it might be and I think managing and tempering expectations is is such an important thing in golf, but it's it's very difficult to do based on all the content that you see about PGA Tour professional golf YouTube golf, whatever it might be. Those guys are really good and it's it's

then hard to go to your local golf course and say, yeah, yeah, yeah, don't worry about going for the green. Just get it out there,

The Professor (1:14:10)
Ryan, I got I guess sort of one last question. I know we need let you go soon. what in London, probably gonna get some good Indian tonight or something like that if you're in an Indian. That's all I eat when I'm in the UK. you brought up, you know, getting pissed off over a shot, you know, you're able to channel that nicely into, you know, your next shot, and typically that's gonna when you're gonna perform really at a high level. Now, relative to your broader goals, is that also play out in that way? As in like

You set up goals for the year or maybe a tournament and you reflect back and you're like, I didn't do that, right? We can use obviously the president's cup. I'm sure that burns a lot. I think you got snubbed, should have been there. but do you look at those things and also does that sort of inspire the same sort of fire? Or are you different in how you approach your goals in terms of broader goals than just a shot or a tournament?

Ryan Gerard (1:14:59)
Yeah, I think you have process goals and you have outcome goals and I don't think they really overlap, right? Like I, you know, for example, I had three goals the final round of East like this year. I was going to be committed to every shot. I was going to stay in the moment, be one shot at a time and I wasn't going to complain. Those are our three goals for the round. They're all very doable individually.

I wasn't committed to the second shot that I hit on the first hole and made double bogey. Like it immediately threw that out the window. And the prostration then comes from like, hey, like it was something that I could control very easily. It's not the golf swing. It's literally just commit to this golf shot. And I feel like I could have done a better job of, you know, the process leading up to the golf shot to then feel more committed for it.

My goals in a round of golf can fluctuate based on, we're 400 through six, let's get it to 800. Or, hey, we're two over through 14, let's get it back under par for the round. The outcome goals can change. The outcome goals for the year can change. My goal this year was to make it to Eastlake. I knew with five events left in the season, I was gonna make it to Eastlake.

You can't just like stop playing for something at that point. You then have to find something else to chase. But I think the difference between process and outcome is always process you can control, outcome is whatever might happen after that, and you have to have a good mix of both. And I'm a fan of setting unrealistic goals because it's

It's stupid, right? Like, but it's a, you aim at someone's shirt, you might miss by a couple yards, but if you aim at just like a bunker, you might miss it by 10. It's kind of the aim small, miss small philosophy. Aim high, you might still miss it, but you're still working something. And in terms of process goals, I like to be really ingrained in

the trust that I hit or the trust of each shot that I hit, but the trust in what I do. And I think it's very difficult to trust it sometimes. And like, you can just sit here and be like, dude, just like trust it, man. like,

Something that I found is when things aren't going your way.

Whether that be like you hit it in the fairway three times and you hit it in a sandy divot twice and you're like, how is this possible? Like there's all this green grass and my ball just went in this divot. How do you respond from that adversity? How do you look at yourself and just say, hey man, I'm just going to keep plotting along. I'm going to stick to my process, which is, you know, if I keep doing this, good things are eventually going to happen. And that's where the no complaining.

comes in and I found that I have gotten complaining at times in my career. I know some other guys get whiny and like people are like, like they're on TV whining about, you know, course conditions and you know, they make $10 million a year. It's like, yeah, we do. And we are whining about it. And like,

The Professor (1:18:27)
Yeah.

Ryan Gerard (1:18:28)
that's fair. But I think some of it is like, that comes from a place of wanting it so bad. comes from a place of

trying to control things that you can't control, which is the outcome of the golf shot once it leaves your club face and just wanting everything to work out perfectly because that's what you strategize for. That's what you that's what you played for. And when it doesn't like that's a coping mechanism. And it's unfair to want to be perfect all the time. And it's unfair for me to want to hit every golf shot exactly the way that I want to hit it. But if I didn't think that I could, I

probably wouldn't be playing golf at a high level. And if I also was unrealistic and thought that I actually was gonna pull it off tomorrow when I go play this Pro-Am, like I would be a psychopath and you should lock me up and throw away the key.

Matt Considine (1:19:14)
Ha ha

Ryan Gerard (1:19:15)
So it's some combination of finding where...

I know this works for me. I know that I'm going to stick to this process throughout the entirety of the day because I'm going to give it, it's due. I'm gonna understand that this is why I'm doing it. And I'm gonna, for like a better word, trust that this is gonna lead me to good things. And...

you know, whatever the outcome is, I can live with it. I can change the outcome goals as they go along. can.

I could go and reflect on something at the end of the round or complain about something after the round's over. Like, yeah, dude, can you believe that I hit it off this flag stick and it bounced off the green? Like, shit happens. It's golf. But during the course of the day, I feel like those are just, I know I'm kind of rambling now and I lost my train of thought, but like, those are kind of things that I've thought about that I see other guys do and kind of what's worked for me in certain situations.

Matt Considine (1:20:22)
I mean there's so much to take away. I we don't want to keep you all day, Ryan. I wanna ask you one question because I jotted it down. You kinda you said it twice. You're talking about playing some fun golf in Portugal. you mentioned when you saw the professor at the airport, he was headed out to play fun golf and that you were headed to play competitive golf. I've asked myself this question many, many times.

I feel like you're gonna have a thoughtful answer to it, but is competitive golf not fun?

Ryan Gerard (1:20:52)
Competitive golf is...

its own animal. It can be fun when you're playing well. It can be the most fun thing in the world when you feel like you're in control of your game and you have a chance to win on a Sunday. It can also feel like the biggest burden when you just don't know where the golf ball is going or you just feel it slipping away and you're doing all that you can to kind of hold it together and you just know that like I just got to get it in the house somehow.

I think competitive golf is very fun for me.

but I can understand why that there's stress, there's...

frustration, there's anger in it a lot of the time because it's such a fine line between good and bad. And I put a lot into it. have coaches, trainers, sports psychologists, caddy, a lot of people that are relying on me to execute a golf shot. And

It's not, it doesn't add stress to my plate because that's what I signed up for, but like it matters because it matters to me. It matters to them. Like they eat because I hit a golf ball close to a hole. Like that's crazy. And from that standpoint, there is a lot of frustration and stress and anger because I owe it to myself. I owe it to them. I owe it to the people who are putting an effort to give it.

my best possible shot every single day, every single time I show up for work. So yeah, it can be fun, you have to treat it like a job and you have to give it the respect that it deserves. And I think when you go play fun golf, maybe some of those baggages get left at home and you can kind of just turn the brain off and fire it some flag sticks, but.

It's very fun for me to be competitive. I love competing. It's like probably the most fun thing in the world for me. But if I'm frustrated with the golf shot, if I'm frustrated with the way I'm playing, if I'm frustrated, whatever, it doesn't mean I'm not having fun. It just means in that specific moment, I am not okay with how I'm playing and I'm going to do everything in my power to try and turn it around and try and right the ship. And sometimes that means

saying really bad things to myself until I decide that that's not who I'm going to be for the rest of the day.

Matt Considine (1:23:17)
That's that's a great I mean we we talk a ton about how golf mimics life, right? It's a cliche, but it's so freaking true and stuff matters in life, right? And you gotta take the good with the bad. So well I'll I'll be watching this this coming week. Ryan, I think this is your at Le Golf National. I saw you were added to the the group there. And I never missed that one because

That's that closing stretch is like I don't know. I love it. I'm a glutton for for that. but we'll be rooting for you, man. Professor, any other questions for Ryan or we we let him get back to back to his craft here.

The Professor (1:23:52)
He's he's ready to yeah, get it in the mindset of competing, I'm sure, not and no longer talking to us hooligans.

Matt Considine (1:24:00)
That's right. Well, Ryan, thanks again, man. Enjoyed it.

Ryan Gerard (1:24:03)
Guys, appreciate you having me on. Thanks always. lot of fun and we'll have to do it again sometime.

The Professor (1:24:10)
Absolutely.

Matt Considine (1:24:13)
That was fun. Professor, lot to like about that Ryan Gerrard. Excellent booking. What what'd you take from that chat with Ryan?

The Professor (1:24:20)
Well

first we can get rid of this. No, we gotta get that. That's we we entertained that long enough. No more. You know, horns down. beat be beat Tennessee. Beat

Matt Considine (1:24:30)
No more Texas. No more Texas talk.

The Professor (1:24:32)
Tennessee though. no, like man, there's just people you come across in life, you know, and again, shout out to Nico. You know, I trust Nico's assessment of people more than probably just about anybody else in the world. Honestly, his ability to he just has that ability to read someone and know who they are.

from the basic the first word out of their mouths. So when he suggests someone, you know, you need to meet, talk to someone, trust them unequivocally. And Ryan was one of those, you know, the first day he met him and he was told he sucks by Ryan and like of and was like, Hey, I love this dude already.

Matt Considine (1:25:05)
That's how you become best friends with Nico. You gotta talk just talk bad to him.

The Professor (1:25:07)
Yeah, you gotta tell

that's right. And it's one of those like, yeah, man, that dude's aspirational, right? Like the way he he's so cerebral cerebral about life, golf, the way you talked to about balancing, yeah, the the fun aspect of golf, but then balancing that with the competitive side where you gotta turn somewhat turn that off a little bit in different ways. maybe want to through run through a wall a couple points, right? You just come across those people in your in life sometimes that just give you energy to be better.

To push to realize, yeah, things are hard, but that it's worth showing up. It's worth pushing harder always. And he was just one of those, right? Just like, hey, yeah, you you're here, get better, you know, challenge yourself. And you know, we're here on earth for a short period of time. And I think that's a pretty it's not always easy to live that life, right? Like, but that is the way to live life, is to like realize you're here for a short period of time, look to be better, make other people better around you, you know, try to accomplish things and

Do good for yourself and other people.

Matt Considine (1:26:06)
Yeah, and no matter the stakes or no matter the circumstances, right? Whether it's the start of your journey or the end. Like I that's what I the process goals and all that discussion really resonated with me. I think the the thing I am reflecting on now is the fact that, you know, I I I wasn't following as closely as you have the last few years. I certainly watch a lot of pro golf and enjoyed

Seen them on the TV. And then I get hooked as I think many do this year. He's had just incredible one-liners that are really human, that are really just sound like, you know, like he described himself, just a guy hitting a ball with some sticks, putting it close to the flag. And I I I that's what kind of drew me in. But today's conversation, it was such a reminder that boy, when you give the the time to a subject or a topic or just a deeper question. I mean, there's so much nuance to it's not just a

a short clip or a one liner, it's it's a there's a so many deeper answers in there that really got me thinking about my my own golf game, but my own life, my own, you know, th challenges. And boy, it it it it was. It was a really good one. And that really speaks to the thing that you and I have been spending a lot of time on working towards with this with this show is our upcoming deep dive series, which

I just want to remind our our listeners, they are coming. I know we we teased it with an episode, I think a week or two ago, but the professor and I are every quarter selecting one topic, one particular golf club that has had an impact on the game of golf in a major way. And we're going deep and we're reading a bunch of books and we're talking about what it, you know, its its spectrum and its journey has been as a collective community of members and clubs and

I think a lot of our listeners are the type of people that just want that more thoughtful depth. They want to to hear, you know, the deeper truth to it. And you you and I know that we we know how fun it was to create. I I I hope it's gonna be as fun for our listeners. So if you're listening and you're one of those people, give us a subscribe, join us for these upcoming deep dive series, our weekly episodes are.

Like the conversation we just had with Ryan, they're gonna keep going. But we're truly committed and excited about what we're gonna present here with these deeper long form stories. And so if you don't want to miss those, you gotta subscribe. Do it wherever you're listening. It's in our show notes. And thanks as always to our friends at Titleist.

The Vokey SM11 wedges. If you're at the end of the season with some worn down wedge grooves looking back at you like mine, it's time. Let's venture out there over to titleist.com and schedule a time while you're still swinging and the game is somewhat sharp. Thanks for listening. We will catch you all on the next one.